(This post was last modified: 11/09/2008 09:36 PM by feinicks.)

feinicks Wrote:u miss the point...

what I'm saying is NO ONE asked US to get involved and go on a full scale war. The only assistance, in India's case, required from US' side is to NOT sell weapons to an already crippled economy. Cause they sure as hell are not gonna be using it to defend them. As Israel likes to put it... let us handle our problems. Just don't get involved/

and about M16's being pc of spoon... you pull the trigger, it will still kill a human.

as someone above said.. "if only America did not play God..."

Tell me, have you EVER seen an M-series weapon (M4, M16, etc) in the hands of ANY extremist? No. You see AK series weapons, ie, those from China and N. Korea and the like. They're the ones making them en masse. Yes, the US has provided training, but it's to the country's military to prevent invasions like the Gulf War.

And this is in no way a full scale war. This is a single conflict in the Middle Eastern war that's been going on for decades with various parties, the US included, involved. In fact, this is one of the most successful military campaigns the US has ever gone into. They introduced Democracy to a country that previously lived under tyranny. Saving a nation from a dictator isn't playing God. If it was, why doesn't anyone refer to the European Theater of WWII as "playing God"? It's the exact same thing, except on a MUCH larger scale.

I don't know if you live in Europe or the US or somewhere else, Feinicks, but if you live in Europe, you can thank the US for a large part of your freedom.

(This post was last modified: 11/09/2008 10:20 PM by Chroma.)

metalgear08 Wrote:Actually, to be honest, the US is doing all it can. It's the native people that are making it Fudged up beyond all recognition. Other nations haven't tried cleaning up a country half-filled with suicide bombers essentially plunging the entire place into civil war.

Look at it this way.

Imagine an opposite situation, instead of the US invading Iraq, Iraq invades the US, defeats the US military, kills over 1 million US people, hangs your leader, destroys a crapload of your buildings, creates massive civil unrest in the US, and the rest of the spoon that's been happening...

So if that happened, do you think the US will sit on their asses welcoming their invaders? Do you think they're going to be all happy like it's Christmas and not do anything? Fuck off. If that happened, the US would be way more than "a country half-filled with suicide bombers" and "the native people that are making it Fudged up beyond all recognition".

metalgear08 Wrote:You know they hated us first right? In fact, they basically hate any modern society for being "gluttonous" and the like. Just because you're isolated in Australia doesn't mean that the rest of the world isn't experiencing some shit.

And what are you experiencing? Sitting at home being gluttonous maybe.

Seriously, nothing even happened to you, and you're talking stuff like this. Imagine if you were an Iraqi in Iraq, and the war happened, you'd probably be one of these terrorists.

And you somehow expect them to sit there quietly and accept whatever shit's happening, when you think you are "experiencing shit" in America...

metalgear08 Wrote:I do think that the Iraq situation was justified in the beginning. Saddam Hussein was a horrible human being who wiped an entire race of people out. (Kurdish Massacre) The US, UK, and the associated allies were right to put a stop to that. And mind you, I'm not the type who's GUNG HO WAR FIGHT DEATH KILL about the whole situation, unlike a lot of people that identify with my political party of choice. I think that wee do need to make a clean break from the area, as, imo, there's really no hope for it.

And George Bush was a horrible human being who killed over 1 million Iraqis and <insert large number here> of Afghans. So maybe some country should come and invade and completely fuck over the USA, break your military, hang everyone in the current US parliament, and kill random US people who had nothing to do with it all?

Dude, that's just the typical "GUNG HO WAR FIGHT DEATH KILL" thought.

You think it's justified. Not everyone shares your thought. I know for a fact that at least most of the Iraqis don't. So because you're stronger, you attack someone weaker to forcefully impose your thoughts onto them. Maybe you experienced too much bullying at school?

metalgear08 Wrote:They also ATTACKED US. They flew 2 jet planes into the hub for a lot of the international economy. Wee went after Bin Laden, and he escaped to Pakistan, and probably died already from his kidney disease.

So basically you're saying because A attacked B, B decided to attack C... Great logic.

Bin Laden attacking America is related to Iraq because? In the end, no relationships between Bin Laden and Saddam has ever been found.

Incadude Wrote:Theres two kinds of people in the world, people that take action and people that complain. If wee didnt go to iraq people would have complained that the US didnt care for other countries. Theres no win win solution when you have other pansy countries always criticizing America. If it werent for the US everyone would be speaking German right now. I hate people that complain in their safe home in the suburbs when other humans are dying and suffering everyday.

So what, you feel mighty and strong because you can attack a poor 3rd world country? And wee are "pansy" because wee don't want to attack it. And for your information, Australia and England and probably most of the places wee're from also sent soldiers into Iraq.

Quote from metalgear08 -» "the type who's GUNG HO WAR FIGHT DEATH KILL about the whole situation"

What the hell does Germans and whatever have to do with this? If America was correct to fight against Hitler, does that naturally mean they are always right in everything else they do? And even if America did absolutely nothing, Germany probably would've still lost WWII.

metalgear08 Wrote:And how is freeing a country from a ruthless dictator "pushing other people around" and "attacking random countries"? Do you think that the invasion of Europe in WWII to eliminate Hitler was "pushing other people around" and "attacking random countries"?

Now Iraq is somehow better than before? No. Iraq is way more screwed up than it has ever been.

For gods sake people, stop bringing up WWII and Hitler. That is the past. Wee're talking about the present. If you want to talk about the past, why don't you bring up the Romans. They did much more fucked up shit than Hitler. And doing something correct in the past does not justify doing something wrong in the present. Surely, every rapist/murderer/thief/whatever must have done some good stuff in the past before.

Slushba132 Wrote:That isn't the way to just let evil people do evil.
To just sit there and do nothing while people are getting hurt.

I am very proud that I live in a country where wee will defend the underdog.
And the fact that wee remember when wee an underdog and are willing to help them out.

It's only your opinion that "freeing a country from a ruthless dictator", "let evil people do evil" or whatever.

from before:

Quote:Not everyone shares your thought. I know for a fact that at least most of the Iraqis don't. So because you're stronger, you attack someone weaker to forcefully impose your thoughts onto them. Hey, didn't Hitler do that too?

(This post was last modified: 11/09/2008 10:59 PM by Assassinator.)

feinicks Wrote:

metalgear08 Wrote:Tell me, have you EVER seen an M-series weapon (M4, M16, etc) in the hands of ANY extremist? No. You see AK series weapons, ie, those from China and N. Korea and the like. They're the ones making them en masse. Yes, the US has provided training, but it's to the country's military to prevent invasions like the Gulf War.

And this is in NO way a full scale war. This is a single conflict in the Middle Eastern war that's been going on for decades. In fact, this is one of the most successful military campaigns the US has ever gone into. They introduced Democracy to a country that previously lived under tyranny.

Saving a nation from tyranny isn't playing God. If it was, why doesn't anyone refer to the European Theater of WWII as "playing God"? It's the exact same thing, except on a MUCH larger scale.

did u ask an Iraqi how they felt about the US attacks? and why US was still there? Apparenlty people were happy under Saddam too. its like 50 % Russians and 70% Chinese preferring Communism over democracy. Yes, its a good thing that US established democracy there, but at what cost? No matter what you say or where you go.. you will always find this debate.

If terrorists were to use M-Series, then even US would not be able to shadows dark activities... no country is that a fool.

---

LOL!! This thread has reminded me of an episode in Scrubs!

MG don't argue anymore its pointless. When people live in their false realities they will never be able to understand what is actually going on in the world. Its kinda like the matrix. Why unplug when everything seems to be good. I know how communism ruins and destroys lives. my dad lived through the shining path terrorism in Peru and has seen what communism does to people who don't agree with the "People". Anyone who says communism is better that democracy is a complete idiot.

(This post was last modified: 11/09/2008 10:55 PM by Kuu.)

Assassinator Wrote:What the hell does Germans and whatever have to do with this? If America was correct to fight against Hitler, does that naturally mean they are always right in everything else they do? And even if America did absolutely nothing, Germany probably would've still lost WWII.

Don't you see that history repeats itself? In WW2 it was hitler today its Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. He has said that wants to kill all jews and any "infidels" meaning anyone that isn't muslim. Now George Bush might have done the wrong thing by attacking Iraq but its to secure the east from Iran taking over it. I predict in 3 to 4 more years that Iran will try to take over neighbor countries and start WW3. So in the long run helping Iraq set up a government wasn't a bad idea. Iran will probably take over european countries easily like hitler did in WW2. I guess wee will have to bail your asses again.

this is what i predict:
Russia, Iran, China, and North Korea     vs.    Everyone Else.          (A fight for the remaining oil reserves)

i hope to be dead by then.

(This post was last modified: 11/09/2008 11:06 PM by Incadude.)

Incadude Wrote:Don't you see that history repeats itself? In WW2 it was hitler today its Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. He has said that wants to kill all jews and any "infidels" meaning anyone that isn't muslim.

That's Iran, not Iraq.

Incadude Wrote:Now George Bush might have done the wrong thing by attacking Iraq but its to secure the east from Iran taking over it.

If that was really the case, then why not attack Iran, instead of attacking Iraq. Or just wait till Iran makes a move, then the US do have a reason for an attack (and a very solid reason), and unlike now, everyone will be supporting it.

Incadude Wrote:I predict in 3 to 4 more years that Iran will try to take over neighbor countries and start WW3. So in the long run helping Iraq set up a government wasn't a bad idea. Iran will probably take over european countries easily like hitler did in WW2. I guess wee will have to bail your asses again.

Iran doesn't have close to that much power. And Iran would never try something like that, because if they do, then the whole world would turn around and screw them over. They aren't stupid, and don't really want to get screwed over...

Before WWII, Germany was arguably one of the strongest single countries. In terms of technology, military, everything, they were all at the top. Even even so, they still lost the WWII. Iran doesn't hold even close to as much power as Germany once did. Would Iran even attempt it?

(This post was last modified: 11/09/2008 11:14 PM by Assassinator.)

Assassinator Wrote:Look at it this way.

Imagine an opposite situation, instead of the US invading Iraq, Iraq invades the US, defeats the US military, kills over 1 million US people, hangs your leader, destroys a crapload of your buildings, creates massive civil unrest in the US, and the rest of the spoon that's been happening...

So if that happened, do you think the US will sit on their asses welcoming their invaders? Do you think they're going to be all happy like it's Christmas and not do anything? Fuck off. If that happened, the US would be way more than "a country half-filled with suicide bombers" and "the native people that are making it Fudged up beyond all recognition".

Well, for one, the US isn't ruled by an extremist dictator who believes in executing women who use the internet. Have you ever actually spoken to someone who's served over there? I had a close family friend who served 3 tours of duty, and he wanted to go back, because of all the good they were doing for the everyday citizen.

Hell, one of my little brother's best friends has family that lives over there, and he talks about how they say they don't live in fear. Real people, man, not the fucked up image the media portrays and that you buy into.

Assassinator Wrote:And what are you experiencing? Sitting at home being gluttonous maybe.

Seriously, nothing even happened to you, and you're talking stuff like this. Imagine if you were an Iraqi in Iraq, and the war happened, you'd probably be one of these terrorists.

And you somehow expect them to sit there quietly and accept whatever shit's happening, when you think you are "experiencing shit" in America...

The gluttonous thing was me being facetious. I'm talking about how they hate the modern Western World's way of life. And what about you? Are you living your life as to not be "gluttonous"?

I never said that just the US was experiencing shit or I personally was experiencing shit. I was actually talking about the world over. Times are changing, my friend.

Assassinator Wrote:And George Bush was a horrible human being who killed over 1 million Iraqis and <insert large number here> of Afghans. So maybe some country should come and invade and completely fuck over the USA, break your military, hang everyone in the current US parliament, and kill random US people who had nothing to do with it all?

Dude, that's just the typical "GUNG HO WAR FIGHT DEATH KILL" thought.

You think it's justified. Not everyone shares your thought. I know for a fact that at least most of the Iraqis don't. So because you're stronger, you attack someone weaker to forcefully impose your thoughts onto them. Maybe you experienced too much bullying at school?

George Bush may be misguided and inexperienced, but he isn't a "horrible human being who killed over 1 million Iraqis and <insert large number here> of Afghans." The total Iraqi death toll, first of all, is sitting right around 200,000. And that's NOT all from us. That's from the children strapped with explosives who walk into a crowded market and push the button, the guys who bomb civilian buses, etc. In fact, the aforementioned tragedies account for most of that death toll. Contrary to your misguided beliefs, the soldiers aren't there shooting civilians on sight.

And you know for a fact? Really? I doubt it. Again, have you spoke to anyone that's ever been over there or been there yourself?

Assassinator Wrote:So basically you're saying because A attacked B, B decided to attack C... Great logic.

Bin Laden attacking America is related to Iraq because? In the end, no relationships between Bin Laden and Saddam has ever been found.

I'm sorry I wasn't clearer, that was me talking about Afghanistan alone.

Assassinator Wrote:So what, you feel mighty and strong because you can attack a poor 3rd world country? And wee are "pansy" because wee don't want to attack it. And for your information, Australia and England and probably most of the places wee're from also sent soldiers into Iraq.

Quote from metalgear08 -» "the type who's GUNG HO WAR FIGHT DEATH KILL about the whole situation"

What the hell does Germans and whatever have to do with this? If America was correct to fight against Hitler, does that naturally mean they are always right in everything else they do? And even if America did absolutely nothing, Germany probably would've still lost WWII.

1. Wee weren't attacking a 3rd world country, wee were liberating it. There's a difference. Wee freed millions of civilians, everyday people, from a tyrant who wiped out an entire subset of the Arab people not even 30 years ago. Do the Kurds ring any bells? I mean, the man committed genocide.

2. No, if wee hadn't joined the fight, Germany would have definitely won. In case you forget, wee stopped them from making the nuclear bomb.

Assassinator Wrote:Now Iraq is somehow better than before? No. Iraq is way more screwed up than it has ever been.

For gods sake people, stop bringing up WWII and Hitler. That is the past. Wee're talking about the present. If you want to talk about the past, why don't you bring up the Romans. They did much more fucked up shit than Hitler. And doing something correct in the past does not justify doing something wrong in the present. Surely, every rapist/murderer/thief/whatever must have done some good stuff in the past before.

Yes, in fact, it is. Iraq is much better than it was before. As I said twice before, have you ever spoken to anyone that's been over there?

WWII was a similar situation to what is happening today, albeit on a much larger scale. Wee went in to free an oppressed country from a ruthless dictator who ruled with an iron fist.[/quote]

Assassinator Wrote:It's only your opinion that "freeing a country from a ruthless dictator", "let evil people do evil" or whatever.

from before:

Quote:Not everyone shares your thought. I know for a fact that at least most of the Iraqis don't. So because you're stronger, you attack someone weaker to forcefully impose your thoughts onto them.

Not to bring up the WWII thing AGAIN, but if wee had let the evil people be, as you suggest, then you'd most likely be speaking German and be saluting to Hitler's grandson.

Assassinator Wrote:Iran doesn't have close to that much power. And Iran would never try something like that, because if they do, then the whole world would turn around and screw them over. They aren't stupid, and don't really want to get screwed over...

Before WWII, Germany was arguably one of the strongest single countries. In terms of technology, military, everything, they were all at the top. Even even so, they still lost the WWII. Iran doesn't hold even close to as much power as Germany once did. Would Iran even attempt it?

Are you on something? Iran has been testing ballistic missiles, and developing its own nuclear technology, under the guise of nuclear power. I mean, the man denies that the Holocaust happened, and says he wants to erase Israel off the map. He's got the power to start some serious shit, and has expressed the interest to do so.

ONCE AGAIN. How do you know ths? Have you seen his stash of weapons and determined that he's no real threat? Have you?

(This post was last modified: 11/09/2008 11:21 PM by Chroma.)