theEvilOne Wrote:

Hellgiver Wrote:This brings into question the idea of (dammit, what's it called...) God having planned everything out. Since God is both omniscient, and omnipotent, he not only knew this child was not meant to live a long life, but he had intended this. By this logic, if one were to take his or her own life, then it'd not only have been expected by God, but intended.  To say that committing suicide leads directly to hell, it makes it sound like predestination is true. God intended you to live a short life, by making you take your own life. Then why the hell have this rule? Why does (blank) HAVE to go to hell? God chose this outcome, so doesn't that seem a bit unfair?

To circumvent this argument, one could take on the belief of God knowing only how everything will come together in the end, so the means of reaching the end aren't defined until the end actually occurs. This would mean that God isn't omniscient, but it would allow for free will.

That was one of the main points I argued about in my essay.

The first problem with such a claim is the part where free will comes into effect. If God was all-knowing and all-seeing as He is thought to be, that would interfere with our free will; God would be able to see and alter every possible outcome to every human’s choices in life. If omniscience were to stay wee would literally have to murder the freedom to make lucid—or irrational—decisions, those that which God has given to us humans. But if that were to ever happen, the existence of God would make sin completely irrelevant (Pederson 1). People would hurt, 'borrow', and murder one another, and the one excuse they would ever need is that God has foreseen their choices and has set a path for them to follow. He cannot judge them fairly when their time has come, as He had foreseen their mistakes and could have stopped it from ever happening. Wee humans would merely have to walk down it and not feel guilty, gaining a free ticket to the party in Heaven. This plausibly makes omniscience impossible; therefore an omniscient (and omnipotent) God is just as likely to exist as a Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Oh, sorry, I didn't see your essay up there. Just read it, and I agree with many of your points. You went the extra step that I've also considered. If God sends people to heaven or hell based on their actions, but already knows their actions, and has meant for their actions to be made, then, as predestination states, the outcome of your life has already been decided. The only way I could get over this, as I said before, is that God has determined the outcome, and the way it is arrived at is up to the free will of humanity.

One could compare this to an open ended RPG. Though it is said to be completely open (free will) , there has to be an end somewhere, barring you put down the game and never finish the "main quest". The end is something that has already been foreseen by the developers (God), and it has to be concluded in this manner. Now, there may be multiple endings, but there is still a set conclusion. The story WILL finish once (blank) has been done, whether it is choosing to side with the boss of the game, or it is to fight the boss of the game, or whatever it may be. sure, there might be a New Game+ (comparing it to afterlife actually wouldn't work here because the "conclusion" mentioned before is the way it all ties up, such as God facing Satan and winning, thus afterlife would already be underway, and New Game+ always follows the conclusion of the main game), but there was a preconceived conclusion. In that sense, it is not TRULY open. The things you do before the game's conclusion is open ended, but certain, particular, events must occur, such as the "main quest".  I think this would most easily explain a way to defend "free will".

Maybe that comparison is kind of loose, but I think it does well enough.

I don't know how old this thread is but I've been wanting to post a thread like this for a long time I really didn't have time to read all of it word by word but l read most of it I'll give my opinion and l hope someone still answer's

well first off all l think there is only 2 way's this world could end first there is no god and after wee die it will all finish and wee will be gone forever second is that there is god and there is hell and heaven and that wee are judged and then sent to hell or heaven so for this reason l think that if the first one is right then wee will die and so wee well be gone forever so wee will no longer exists to regret that wee wasted our life and there was no hell or heaven or god but if there is even a 1% chance that heaven exists a place where wee could have anything wee want, be free for ever never get bored and ... l think it is worth believing in it and in god because this useless life is really nothing in compare to that.

and also l think everyone is born as equal, some one totally disabled and someone like us are totally equal, when they are born but the difference is how they use what they have for example maybe for a poor guy who sits next to the street and begs for help, sharing what he get's with his little brother is the best good he could do and maybe for example for us becoming a great scientist, l don't know if you got what i said.

and also about kid's that die at a really young age they are surly for a purpose that god knows
maybe to make there parent's believe in something or think about something. god knows what!

also don't forget that it was religion that kept us up till today if there where no profit's every one would have stopped believing in god and they would have seen no reason in not having everything in this world for themselves and they would have started killing all the others.

also just as Mr.Shizzy said this life is a test and if religion would have said everything about god, us and this world then every one would have been good and it wasn't a test anymore if all of you knew god and everything about him you would have surly believed in him.

also about the fact that sick_demanted99 said that "I just don't like it when people sit back and believe that God is going to solve all their problems, instead of trying to help themselves first.  It's just like what the bible says, "God helps those who help themselves..." That right right there is confusing because I start thinking, "But if I'm helping myself, then I really don't need God, now do I...?" or "But if I'm helping myself, then God didn't really help me..."  the point in asking god for helping you in something is for the fact that even if you do everything that you have to for something you want to do there always are accidents and thing that could happen to you and you ask god to keep you away from these accident's for example if you want to get ready for a guitar concert wee'll then you practice make sure every thing's ok and do every thing but then for example you get a heart attack when you go on stage! or something like this and you so you trust god to keep you away for stuff like this!