MysterySword Wrote:...regardless of whether you believe in God or not, I do believe the idea of God is a necessity in the world. It helped establish base morals for people, and in that respect, helped create a more civilized society. If there wasn't such a unity of morals, too many people would define their own morals, some of which people today would admit to being rather twisted. Einstein, who was an Atheist, also said something similar.

morality
"sins" are wrong not just because the bible/religion/god said so, they are wrong because they are just plain wrong.
* whatever you believe in, wee all know that "insert a wrong doing here" is wrong, not because some supreme being declared it to be wrong.

Lots of interesting points made so far.

theEvilOne Wrote:

Spoiler:

Kchan Wrote:I think there is a god of some kind because I can't believe something came from nothing.
if its a mouse that started the universe or a grand being of energy. what ever it is that's my god.

I think when I die I will be judged how much time i cause pain in the world if it accumulates to 10 years of pain then I burn in hell for that time but after that I am set free to roam heaven

I think all beings go to heaven after they serve their time in hell even hitler himself

What about the fact that God supposedly is the Absolute Creator? He created himself out of nothing (much like you said, the universe being created from nothing) and can create anything out of nothing. If that's true, God is redundant and irrelevant, seeing as how nothingness is what creates gods, implying that nothingness is more powerful than gods.

And this brings up another argument. Whenever I bring up my thoughts to my parents, especially my father, who I might add is the smartest man I've ever known (so a lot of what he says, I believe immediately), they respond that I am using a limited human brain. It is impossible to understand anything about God, or for that matter, infinity, nothingness, omnisciency, all of it. Infinity plays on our idea that everything has a beginning, middle, and end.

However, that is basically saying that time is something that exists.  Well, time is manmade. It is a way to measure a progression in change. My dad always used to joke that time was invented so that everything doesn't happen all at once. Such an argument as "our brains can't comprehend it" does serve a purpose of making God appear even greater, as well as tame any doubts wee might have, because the reason why wee don't understand God is because wee CAN'T understand him. This drives me crazy.

I'll add in that I am still on the fence about my beliefs. I don't want to be on the fence, though. I find evidence (in my mind) for both sides, but it is always circumstantial. I'd love nothing better than to be given a reasonable point that I could hold onto as my main anchor for hope.

On the one hand, I hear of stories of near death experiences, where the person can accurately tell what all was happening while they were on the surgical table. Then, I hear people constantly relaying stories of ghosts or other phenomena.

But there could be multiple answers for the near-death situation. The person might have gotten ONE lucky guess and it got exaggerated, such as the guy who worked on him dropped a scalpel and had it replaced, or something. Or, perhaps, there was some consciousness, and the individual wasn't completely dead, or maybe the individual has seen a lot of shows about procedures, and naturally formed his own conclusion of what occurred. Wee really don't know how the body works. Wee understand some of its interactions, but wee can never know all of it. My father often tells me that the reason he found faith was because he could not explain a certain aspect of why a fly's body worked the way it worked. It was too complex, and so he couldn't take his research for that particular project any further, despite the great lengths he'd gone to already.

As for "ghosts", again, wee cannot say wee understand how everything in this world works. You know, my girlfriend often gets scared shitless when the door to my bathroom randomly shuts by itself with a loud bang. But you know, it always happens when there's a strong wind outside. Hmmmm....  Or you'll see "ghost hunters" attempt to tape footage of ghosts, and this always disturbs me, because it feels more like they are giving something as otherworldly as a spirit, or something that most likely wouldn't be of a detectable form in our world, a form. They are showing that it is energy that can be detectable, and that always makes me feel like they are trying to perhaps bring God down to a human level. I don't know, it might not make sense to you guys, but it is just how I feel when I see such shows.

I won't try to get into situations such as something bad that turns out to be great, because that could be chalked up to learning, pure coincidence, natural flow of life, or anything else.

I don't like sounding like a skeptic, because really, I do want to believe. I really do. I have a need to feel that my life isn't leading up to nothing.  However, whenever I think about it in this manner, I consider the fact that everyone has died before me, and they seem to do well with it.  All the greatest people in history have suffered the same fate, so it could be considered the "great equalizer". Regardless, if that is the common ground wee all share, then mathematics would lead us to cancel that out of the equation, and only take into account the differences, in order to obtain whose existence was more enjoyed or whatever else you might think would be the meaning of life. Again, wee'd bring up fairness, and the ability for one to live the best life he or she can.

Sick_Demented99 Wrote:

Spoiler:

I don't really believe in Godl, because I think it is absoulutely impossible for someone to create themselves and "speak" a whole universe into existence.  I've saw this show on the History channel once about them finding the spear that peirced Jesus when he was crucified.  How can that be possible?  How would they know if that was his blood?  They don't have Jesus's blood laying around anywhere.  Also the blood on that spear would be so granulated by this point you wouldn't be able to test it.  If you can't test blood from a murder that happened 20 years ago, what the hell makes them think that they can test the blood of something that happened 6000 years ago?  There's just so much inconsistencies in religion that I stopped believing in God and Jesus when I was twelve.  I'm agnostic now, and I don't believe in religion anymore.  I don't go around and persecute people for believing in God, though.

I believe that people have their own thoughts and views on just who "God" is.  And they do.  That's why there is so many different religions out there.  Like "Christianity" they believe that their religion is the only way to go, (especially the Baptists) and if you don't convert, you'll die and go to hell or when "Rapture" comes Jesus will you leave you behind.  I know this because my Grandfather always tells me this.  Wee had gotten into an argument about last night actually.  He finally calmed down and let me decide what path I wanted to choose once I explained to him what being "Agnostic" was, rather is...

Though they're a lot of different religions out there that believe theirs is the only way to go like, Islam and such.  I haven't really studied all enough to issue anymore statements or opinions about them.  Like I said, I don't really persecute people for their religious beliefs.  I just think, since there is no clear definition on who "God" is and what "He" really thinks, or if "He" really is a "He", I just can't follow any organized religion.  My grandfather says "You should go by what the Bible says," and I say "Which one?"  He says, "The Holy Bible of the Christians!"  I say, "I've read it.  I just don't believe it.  It doesn't make any sense to me.  There's still so many unanswered questions..."  Then he says, "You don't question the Lord!!"  I shoot back, "Then why give us free will, and the ability to think for ourselves?  Wouldn't he have made us all brainwashed zombies who follow and believe blindly without any question, or any ability to question?  Wouldn't if somebody question him, wouldn't he strike them down or destroy cities like he did back in old days?  If that case Las Vegas, California, and a lot of places would be gone by now.  Almost every comedian or actor or actress would be dead, and others."  He says, "They'll get theres."  I just give up at that point with arguing with him because I get so annoyed.

I just can't believe in a God that would let so much suffering happen in the world.  I just don't like it when people sit back and believe that God is going to solve all their problems, instead of trying to help themselves first.  It's just like what the bible says, "God helps those who help themselves..." That right right there is confusing because I start thinking, "But if I'm helping myself, then I really don't need God, now do I...?" or "But if I'm helping myself, then God didn't really help me..."  I think a lot of people, even the hardcore of the most hardcore of Christians, Muslims, Catholics, Jews, etc.  At some point question the existense of God or an Afterlife.  Me?  I just choose not to believe in either.  Besides, I always had this thought, nobody knows what really happens until they die, and if you have been good the majority of your life, then you should have nothing to worry about.  I don't know... then there's the annoying voice of my Grandfather at the back of my head saying "That doesn't' matter!!  You still have to believe in God first!!"  Then I get frustrated and I say "Fuck it all."

As for it being "impossible" for God to speak himself into existence; like I said in previous reply, one could argue that wee are interpreting it with our limited minds. Though I constantly repeat the following point, it is because I find it the most provocative: Wee cannot truly understand how everything works, be it God, time (man made),  the body, anything. Wee can observe anything wee want, for as long as wee want, and wee'll never get a true grasp on it. An example, there are many acupressure points on the body with reportedly consistent results, but wee do not really know how they work: for instance, look up point Co4, a spot on your hand that you apply pressure to. It is used to unblock the qi and blood flow to make headaches dissipate. It ALSO helps with contractions during childbirth. double you tee eff?

Most of the points you made I've also had a problem with, but the biggest problem I've come across is that when I seek answers, my questions are once again dismissed saying that no human could possibly understand. Ugh!

hecaitomix Wrote:

Spoiler:

MysterySword Wrote:...regardless of whether you believe in God or not, I do believe the idea of God is a necessity in the world. It helped establish base morals for people, and in that respect, helped create a more civilized society. If there wasn't such a unity of morals, too many people would define their own morals, some of which people today would admit to being rather twisted. Einstein, who was an Atheist, also said something similar.

morality
"sins" are wrong not just because the bible/religion/god said so, they are wrong because they are just plain wrong.
* whatever you believe in, wee all know that "insert a wrong doing here" is wrong, not because some supreme being declared it to be wrong.

But how do wee know that something is wrong? Who instilled such understanding into us? Wee observe both sides of "wrong" and "right" in the animal kingdom all the time. Do wee get it from our parents? Alright, then wee are getting passed down morals, or culturally accepted morals. Morals can change across cultures, such as certain taboo practices in one region are more openly accepted in another, or perhaps suicide is not frowned upon as much in one place as compared to another. This would be what is called cultural relativism. The thing is, if wee accept this as being true, then wee should also accept subjectivism, or the idea that morals are relative to individuals. This would be accepted because a culture can have quite a small number of members, and as it gets smaller and smaller, and as mathematics shows, as you make a number smaller, approaching infinity, you approach its smallest possible answer, or in this case, you start to approach one. Each person has his or her own morals, then. But to accept this also would lead one to accept nihilism, or the idea that there are no true morals, since there wouldn't be a consensus one way or another. If there were specific morals, then there wouldn't be a difference between cultures. The easiest way to cope with this would be to accept that there are fundamental morals that are accepted across the globe, even if wee can't know exactly what they are. Regardless, this would bring up further debate, were I to go further into it.  But I do see your point despite everything, especially since I've also had the same thoughts.

wee all want to believe, but there's something missing to convince us.

Here's a redefined example of how God cannot exist outside of time:

Take a clock for example.
It has three hands that run at different rates.
These three hands of the clock are only a partial snapshot of the actual flow of time.

The second hand implies on its side an infinite series of hands that run at faster and faster rates until you end up with the moment hand where the rate of time flow is infinite.

The hour hand of the clock, also, implies, on its side, an infinite series of hands which run at slower and slower rates and have as their limit the eternity hand which does not move at all.

Thus there is no escape from time. And life of God outside time is meaningless.

In fact, time is an essential attribute of God.
No time; no God, but the reverse is not true.
That is to say that there is always time whether there is God or not.

Then there's the ever-famous question:
Can God create a rock that he can’t lift?” If God can’t do this, then he isn’t omnipotent, and if he can, then he still isn’t omnipotent, because then there is something, that he can’t do-–which is lifting the rock.

Some Gods are also supposed to be omniscient (all-knowing), and humans supposedly have a free will. But how can humans have a free will, if a god in advance knows what is going to happen? There can be no choice in any meaningful sense of the word, if there is only one possible outcome to each and every situation (that is the outcome that the god has foreseen). This leads us to conclude that free will combined with omniscience is impossible, and if wee want to keep omniscience and thereby have to kill off free will, what does that do to the concept of sin?

Then there are many contradictions in the Bible itself:

In Exodus there are two very different versions of the Ten Commandments, and God is claiming that they are exactly the same (Exo 20:1-17 vs. Exo 34:1,12-26).

According to Gen 2:18-19 God created man before the animals, but Gen 1:25-26 tells us that it was the other way around.

The Earth is claimed to be flat.

Jesus is said to be born while Herod the Great was alive (Mat 2:1-2), and while Quirinius was governor of Syria (Luk 2:1-7). Unfortunately Quirinius became governor ten years after Herod died.

Sparker Wrote:So much tl;dr.

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