What about repairing/replacing existing components?

I agree that not everyone needs an i7 desktop. However in a desktop the components can be removed and replaced relatively easily.

You need to replace the motherboard? No problem with a desktop, just disconnect, swap and then reconnect.
In a laptop? Good luck with that.

Power cord has been cut? No problem! Simply buy a new $15 dollar cable.
Charger cord has been cut? That's at least $80.

DVD drive busted? Replacements are easily found at your local electronics store
Laptop dvd drive busted? Send the whole computer to the manufacturer and hope they can replace it or by an external DVD drive.  

Main screen damaged? Simply purchase a replacement and hook it up.
Laptop screen busted? Same as above but lose portability. Otherwise throw it out.

The list can go on and on.

in a way i would say netbooks (or at least small laptops) are becoming more popular that notebooks, netbooks are a lot easier to carry around then notebooks and have a better battery life.

i guess i am one of the people who prefer convenience over performance.

Assassinator Wrote:E5200 is more than twice as good as a 1.6GHz Atom

At what?  Twice as good at running your web browser?  Twice as good at loading Windows?

Assassinator Wrote:and the 2GB ram compared to 1GB is twice as good

Both the netbook and desktop have 2GB of RAM (netbook's 1GB plus added 1GB stick).

Assassinator Wrote:160 > 120 for HDD, and desktop HDDs are faster

Not by much.  Not sure if the one I found was the Green power drive or not - if it is, difference may hardly be noticeable.

Assassinator Wrote:The webcam and wireless aren't crucial.

Webcam is cheap ($8).  Many people these days have wireless networks.  And it's a plus for a notebook anyway.

Assassinator Wrote:And the good thing about upgrading a desktop is that you can carry stuff over, stuff like DVD drive, HDDs, PSU and chasis are often carried over, saving you a bit of money.

You can do the same with laptops, except for the case/PSU.  The only difference is that one's connected internally, and one's external.  If you're not moving it around much, there's barely any difference.

Assassinator Wrote:And the CPU difference here is sort of different from your Core2 vs i7 comparison. A decent core2 (lets say E8400) can do pretty much everything you want. It can run you 2 or more 1080 vids at the same time, and play the most hardcore games out there, just as good as an i7 (games are mostly GPU), and can encode videos decently fast. So going up to i7 doesn't offer all that much benefits... But the Atom doesn't do everything you want, (you have trouble playing even one 720p vid, you can't play hardcore games, and you encode slow as hell). So going up does give you benefits.

Who plays two 1080p videos at once?
I did mention that laptops weren't designed for games, now, didn't I, and perhaps not terribly good at multimedia applications.  But does the average user really use that that much?  Also, I proposed this thread looking a little into the future.  Perhaps current gen netbooks can't play 1080p that well, but it's really only a matter of time until they do.

feinicks Wrote:If you are looking at a computer that is to be used by a general home user. then you have to consider the fact that they will be playing Hi-Def and other hi quality format. If they want to watch movies, they will go in for big screens. At least a 19" screen. That said, the netbook you mentioned, doesn't have a large screen neither a processor that is comfortable with hi def. Also, 1080 will soon to be bettered by more hi-def standards.

The desktop I mentioned doesn't have a screen at all.  If you put money into a screen, you could do the same for the netbook.
And no, 1080p won't be going out the door any time soon.

feinicks Wrote:One thing that wee haven't discussed is that the desktops them self are becoming smaller and more portable (to an extent), while becoming more and more powerful. I really don't see that laptop completely replacing desktops, for an average user, who doesn't have to work on the go.

From my view, they're generally becoming larger and larger...  And the general small desktops run Intel Atom CPUs so really aren't much more powerful than netbooks.

|-Anubis-| Wrote:What about repairing/replacing existing components?

I agree that not everyone needs an i7 desktop. However in a desktop the components can be removed and replaced relatively easily.

You need to replace the motherboard? No problem with a desktop, just disconnect, swap and then reconnect.

Expenses...  Replacing a mobo may mean you have to swap the CPU, and possibly the RAM (DDR » DDR2 » DDR3).  PCIe and SATA will probably remain for a while right now, so those interfaces probably won't become redundant, but really, if you're changing mobo/CPU/RAM, you're pretty much getting a new system.

|-Anubis-| Wrote:Power cord has been cut? No problem! Simply buy a new $15 dollar cable.
Charger cord has been cut? That's at least $80.

Power cords don't easily get cut...  At least I've still got ~12 year old cables working fine...

|-Anubis-| Wrote:DVD drive busted? Replacements are easily found at your local electronics store
Laptop dvd drive busted? Send the whole computer to the manufacturer and hope they can replace it or by an external DVD drive.

You can replace those yourself too...

|-Anubis-| Wrote:Main screen damaged? Simply purchase a replacement and hook it up.
Laptop screen busted? Same as above but lose portability. Otherwise throw it out.

That is an issue, but again, costs...  besides, if it's at home with the lid closed all the time, chances of laptop screen going bust is very low.

ZiNgA BuRgA Wrote:

Assassinator Wrote:E5200 is more than twice as good as a 1.6GHz Atom

At what?  Twice as good at running your web browser?  Twice as good at loading Windows?

Twice as good at doing anything else that takes processing power. And these things are not unneccesary, otherwise, everyone would be getting Atoms. (You cen get them for desktops too, and they're really cheap too). Hell, a normal atom @ 1.6GHz can't even play a 720p h.264 vid properly (my bro only managed because he was overclocking » 2GHz).

ZiNgA BuRgA Wrote:

Assassinator Wrote:And the good thing about upgrading a desktop is that you can carry stuff over, stuff like DVD drive, HDDs, PSU and chasis are often carried over, saving you a bit of money.

You can do the same with laptops, except for the case/PSU.  The only difference is that one's connected internally, and one's external.  If you're not moving it around much, there's barely any difference.

By carry over I mean when you upgrade, you don't have to buy a new one. I don't mean moving it around or anything. When you buy a new laptop, you buy new everything. Buy a new desktop, and you possibly only need to buy half the things.

ZiNgA BuRgA Wrote:I did mention that laptops weren't designed for games, now, didn't I, and perhaps not terribly good at multimedia applications.  But does the average user really use that that much?  Also, I proposed this thread looking a little into the future.  Perhaps current gen netbooks can't play 1080p that well, but it's really only a matter of time until they do.

I was originally arguing that in your example, the desktop was infact a significant amount better, thus arguing the price efficiency. Not whether you can play games, or whether the average user needs the processing power. The average user actually don't really need the portability either.

|-Anubis-| Wrote:Power cord has been cut? No problem! Simply buy a new $15 dollar cable.
Charger cord has been cut? That's at least $80.

Power cables don't cost $15...

ZiNgA BuRgA Wrote:

|-Anubis-| Wrote:DVD drive busted? Replacements are easily found at your local electronics store
Laptop dvd drive busted? Send the whole computer to the manufacturer and hope they can replace it or by an external DVD drive.

You can replace those yourself too...

MUCH harder to replace. CD drive on my old 666MHz laptop broke back then. Tried to replace it (with another old CD drive wee had somewhere), then figued it was like sort of connected on the inside in multiple places... (don't know how to explain it properly)... Anyway, couldn't replace it. But that was a long time ago, could be easier to replace nowadays.

ZiNgA BuRgA Wrote:That is an issue, but again, costs...  besides, if it's at home with the lid closed all the time, chances of laptop screen going bust is very low.

Heh, that laptop I was talking about earlier, the screen eventually broke as well. Now it's permanently hooked to an old 15inch CRT I have lying around. Still works.

Assassinator Wrote:Twice as good at doing anything else that takes processing power. And these things are not unneccesary, otherwise, everyone would be getting Atoms. (You cen get them for desktops too, and they're really cheap too). Hell, a normal atom @ 1.6GHz can't even play a 720p h.264 vid properly (my bro only managed because he was overclocking » 2GHz).

There's an information divide.  I doubt many people buying a computer really knows that much about what CPU does what really.  They probably pick a price point and get someone more knowledgeable to give suggestions.  And for these people who are more knowledgeable, they're probably processing freaks (somewhat like me) so faster = better, regardless of necessity.
Looking around forums, most people seem to be able to play 720p on the MSI Wind fine.

Assassinator Wrote:By carry over I mean when you upgrade, you don't have to buy a new one. I don't mean moving it around or anything. When you buy a new laptop, you buy new everything. Buy a new desktop, and you possibly only need to buy half the things.

Netbooks don't come with an optical drive, so you save there.  HDDs, I guess, though you're really not paying much for it.

Assassinator Wrote:I was originally arguing that in your example, the desktop was infact a significant amount better, thus arguing the price efficiency. Not whether you can play games, or whether the average user needs the processing power. The average user actually don't really need the portability either.

Portability is a plus though, and by my example, it's really not that much more price efficient in terms of necessity.
Think of it this way - would you pay extra for performance you don't need, or portability?  I'd say the average user would value the small form factor and ability to move it around more than redundant power.

feinicks Wrote:General performance?

And what's that?
Can you boot Windows twice as fast? (I'll give you the answer: no, in fact, you probably won't even notice a difference at all)  Can your web browser render pages twice as fast? (again no, and in most cases, the difference between 0.2 and 0.1 seconds isn't really significant)

So, it's not really twice as fast, now, is it?

feinicks Wrote:However, you can't put in a 800 Mhz and above stick in the netbooks. At least not yet. But again, I concede that for general users, this should not matter.

http://umart.com.au/pro/products_listnew...&sid=37004

Besides, the difference between 800MHz and 667MHz is pretty much non-existent in terms of performance.

feinicks Wrote:I disagree... most common notebooks (or rather netbooks) have a slower Hdd. Plus, the make is not customizable. You do hae an option of getting SSD, but its not worth it for the price.

You can get 7200rpm drives for notebooks too.  They just use more energy...
Anyway, by my point of giving it time, SSDs will eventually get cheaper anyway.

feinicks Wrote:Since wee are talking general users, not much familiar with technical knowledge, they will not be able to recycle any part of the Laptop. Even experienced user will prefer to buy a completely new laptop, due to various issues (mainly warranty).

General users probably wouldn't replace optical drives on a desktop either.  If they're the type which opens things and fiddles around, they could probably do the same with a notebook.

feinicks Wrote:Yes, maybe the next generation netbooks will be able to play hi-def. In fact Asus has said that they intend on making Eee PCs able  to do that. But that brings the question, who would want to watch a 1080p video on a 10" screen? or even 13" screen?

Cause it beats watching video on no screen at all??? (the desktop I mentioned doesn't have a screen)

feinicks Wrote:Plus, netbooks, unlike more expensive notebooks, are not meant to be a replacement for anything. They are not even marketed as such. On the contrary, they are intended to supplement the Desktop. So the debate of Netbooks replacing desktops is somewhat invalid.

Marketing can change.  At present, no.  An issue is, who's the marketing targeted at?  Most marketing for computers is at gamers, cause that's where the profits come from, and gamers won't be seeking a netbook...

feinicks Wrote:However, consider the fact that for $600 you can play games, watch 1080p etc. While $600+ $x get you a big screen. Ok.. but you can't use it for any practical purpose.

Both the netbook and desktop have integrated graphics, so you won't be playing any newer games anyway.  The desktop I mentioned is only the box.  It does not include the keyboard, mouse or screen, which means you have to pay >$600 for the desktop.  Oh, I should've also mentioned the labour - building the desktop yourself is cheaper - if you compare the netbook with a pre-built desktop of similar price...

feinicks Wrote:No.. not anytime soon.. Not for at least another 10 years. But wee are talking with reference to the future.

Who knows what wee have 10 years in the future.  I was referring to the future, but not 10 years ahead >_>

feinicks Wrote:Not really. A motherboard may be reusable for a long period of time. For instance, any AM2 socket motherboard is compatible with Athlon X2, Phenom, Phenom X3 and maybe more... though I'm not sure about the Intel boards.

Note, only the later X2s, which came out about 2.5 years ago - earlier models, like mine, use Socket 939.  The Phenom II requires AM2+ or AM3, so an AM2 board won't work, so AM2 is only for later X2s and the Phenoms.
Now, would you really upgrade one of the later X2 processors to a Phenom?  IMO, it's a waste of money.  You'll hardly get much of a gain, unless you can really make use of the two additional cores offered by the Phenom (still, I'd recommend waiting for something like the PII before upgrading).
Intel, the upgrade is probably like an E6xxx Core 2 processor to a Q9xxx processor - really not worth it either IMO - if you have an E6xxx, you'd be wiser to wait for i7's to come down in price (and they use a different socket).

feinicks Wrote:Also, the expense of singly replacing a component is not as high as getting a new system. DDR3 may be here, but its still sometime till DDR2 is phased out. In that view, almost all newer motherboards offer dual compatibility.

Intel, no.  The IMC of the i7 simply won't allow it.  Now that both Intel and AMD have IMCs, it's really up to them to determine what RAM types are supported, and less for the mobo.  The Phenom II is probably the only thing now which supports DDR2 and DDR3.

feinicks Wrote:Also, very few people periodically replace the CPU. However, many people upgrade their RAM, Hdd, GPU etc on a regular basis. Also, changing a motherboard + RAM + CPU is not as expensive as changing a laptop.

And you can replace the RAM and HDD on a laptop too.
I'm partly going on the assumption that changing your core system (ie CPU) is something that most people don't do (as you've mentioned) so you don't really need to upgrade the entire laptop either...

feinicks Wrote:Aren't wee talking about the general user? Also, most laptops makers would declare that as void of warranty.

I don't think many system manufacturers would respect the warranty if you open the box of your desktop either...

(This post was last modified: 03/04/2009 03:39 AM by ZiNgA BuRgA.)

ZiNgA BuRgA Wrote:Looking around forums, most people seem to be able to play 720p on the MSI Wind fine.

Being able to play some 720p vids properly doesn't mean being able to play 720p vids properly. You need to be able to play absolutely every (in realistic terms, almost all reasonable) 720p vid properly in order to make such a claim.

I do agree it can play some, or maybe even a pretty large amount of 720p vids properly (assuming you use CoreAVC), but from personal experience, some of these 720p fansubs need the 2GHz overclock in order to play properly (Code Geass is one example, especially the ending). Even when overclocked to 2GHz, some of the high bitrate 720p game trailers still fail pretty hard.

ZiNgA BuRgA Wrote:

Assassinator Wrote:By carry over I mean when you upgrade, you don't have to buy a new one. I don't mean moving it around or anything. When you buy a new laptop, you buy new everything. Buy a new desktop, and you possibly only need to buy half the things.

Netbooks don't come with an optical drive, so you save there.  HDDs, I guess, though you're really not paying much for it.

Optical drives, also things like the power supply, case, speakers, keyboard, mouse, monitor, HDDs...

So buying expensive PC parts (works for cheap parts too) like expensive speakers, or an expensive computer case, you can carry them over, and won't need to spend the money again next time. While for laptops, you'll find it extremely difficult to pry your laptop case off your current laptop and stick it onto your next one.

Assassinator Wrote:Think of it this way - would you pay extra for performance you don't need, or portability?  I'd say the average user would value the small form factor and ability to move it around more than redundant power.

Probably true, but then again, they can probably spend less and get a weaker desktop if they don't need the performance. Won't save them that much money though, as the desktop you listed is almost as cheap as it gets.

(This post was last modified: 03/04/2009 04:01 AM by Assassinator.)

Assassinator Wrote:Optical drives, also things like the power supply, case, speakers, keyboard, mouse, monitor, HDDs...

I excluded the cost of speakers, keyboard, mouse etc from my valuation of the desktop cost, but it still requires you to buy it at least once (and wee assume you don't break them).
And when you carry them over, you somewhat make your old comp useless, whereas you still have a working old notebook which can be sold off.  (you could sell off remaining parts of the desktop, but it probably won't be worth as much as a fully functioning laptop)

(This post was last modified: 03/04/2009 04:25 AM by ZiNgA BuRgA.)

~ 3 year old bump ~

Some things that are related:
- gaming system requirements stalling thanks to game consoles » gaming may be more viable on laptops
- optical media falling out of popularity » less space needed for a laptop
- most people don't give a sh*t about upgrading / replacing internals » advantage of an easily open-able box loses its advantage

Seems like AMD's external GPU push hasn't gone anywhere, though Intel is now pushing Thunderbolt, so see what happens of that.


On the desktop side, I somewhat wonder why boxes are so big these days.  With optical drives losing popularity, 2.5in SSDs gaining popularity, and APUs being viable to most people, all you really need is some HTPC-sized case to house the APU/fan, RAM, SSD, small motherboard and a bunch of ports.
Sure, it's not for enthusiasts who like changing stuff, but I'd expect this configuration to be the mass-market setup (or at least will be soon).

A thought I had may be that phones could extend to PC uses.  With MHL video output, wireless keyboard/mouse and phones now having dual core CPUs (probably still not as powerful as Intel Atom) and 1GB RAM, maybe in the future, you'll see people using them more as workstations.
Hell, it's something Intel may push for with its Metfield.