Endless Paradigm

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I would like to join your discussion, but it would just be a repetition of that 10 page discussion wee had through PM. So I'm not going to.

Maybe I should just post the goddamn logs... Then again, that's probably not a good idea.

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Senseito URΩBΩROS Wrote:

ZiNgA BuRgA Wrote:It's also very easy for story writers to spin out random tragic events, and I personally don't find these very touching. 

That's so cold... haha. It happens in Air, Kanon and Clannad.... as well as Kiminozo (Rumbling Hearts). The more legitimate the better eh? I'm not so strict. Nothing can be predicted in life ~ hence with this mindset I have a greater sensitivity to tragic events. Real or not real.

Yeah, Kanon and AIR do sort of give you a feeling of... a series of "random tragic events", in a way. It's almost like... "OMG, this girl's going to die", out of nowhere. Every girl has like a "built in sad story", and they get played out one by one.

As a comparion, ef (both parts together) has a similar structure to AIR and Kanon, but it's not as much "random tragedy". You have 3 stories and 1 overarching back story, the difference is that the stories are more interleaved, both in a technical sense, and also in terms of timeline and plot. ef has a fairy tale like feel, if you think of the 2 parts as a whole, so I thought the VN title, "ef - a fairy tale of the two", is sort of nice.

AIR has a lot of lolwut-ish parts, which aren't explained very well. And by lolwut-ish parts, I don't mean the ending is open, I don't particularly mind open endings (open ending referring to endings that are open to interpretation, like Kanon. Unfinished endings are a different story). I just mean random things happening which doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Open ending and the sort= makes you "think", I'm referring to stuff that make you "wtf?". Some examples include the guy healing the girl by doing something with that weird feather, and the guy either turning into a bird or had his mind infused into the bird. lolwut-ish stuff, if too many are present, or if present at particular places, makes it feel like the writer's out of ideas, and just added some makeshift random stuff in. Kanon on the hand seems like a more well rounded anime. I do admit that AIR's main story > Kanon's main story though, but the side stories are all quite inferior to Kanon's side stories. Heh, so much for what I said at the start about not joining. >.>

KgNE is almost completely about the aftermath of a tragedy, so the tragedy is just part of the setting of the story. The big difference is where Kanon and AIR is sad because "OMG, xyz is going to die, tragedy", KgNE is long past the tragedy bit, so it's the actual story itself. And in that sense, it 1-up's Kanon and AIR. It also has better flow, buildup and ending for that matter too... whatever.


tl;dr... KgNE > Kanon > AIR

ZiNgA BuRgA Wrote:

Senseito URΩBΩROS Wrote:I do find it interesting you find the rather oblivious ending-of-story more enjoyable than the up front, blatently clearer one.

Not really, in fact, the opposite.  Story endings which are left hanging somewhat feel cliché to me.
(okay, lol spoiler) Kanon's ending seems to explain a little more than Air, however seems less resolute and is based upon many things which aren't explained.  Also seems somewhat abrupt.

they felt equally abrupt in that sense...... except, like Assassinator said...... left 'lolwut' on my forehead, scratching my head in confusion while getting rid of the tissues I used up (or flip over a pillow xD).

As you may already know, I bought the KgNE Boxset. and I bought it for a reason. I know its one of the best in its class... but theres one major difference between KgNE and the Key stories. Magic. And it's quite alright to have it you know, it makes it that much more bewildering. But hey, that's probably just me. ;)

Senseito URΩBΩROS Wrote:As you may already know, I bought the KgNE Boxset. and I bought it for a reason. I know its one of the best in its class... but theres one major difference between KgNE and the Key stories. Magic. And it's quite alright to have it you know, it makes it that much more bewildering. But hey, that's probably just me. ;)

Magic should be a feature of the story. Not an excuse for covering up random wtfness and crappy explanations.

And I liked KgNE better than Kanon not simply because Kanon had magic. I liked Kanon better than Hatsukoi Limited (which isn't a bad show btw), and that had no magic whatsoever. Magic has nothing to do with it.

Senseito URΩBΩROS Wrote:they felt equally abrupt in that sense......

Well gradual decline vs everyone suddenly getting healed.  Eh, up to you.

Senseito URΩBΩROS Wrote:except, like Assassinator said...... left 'lolwut' on my forehead, scratching my head in confusion

Kanon has plenty of stuff unexplained, like why he happened to forget everything after seven years, as well as various character traits (not talking about the cutesy factors).

Senseito URΩBΩROS Wrote:As you may already know, I bought the KgNE Boxset. and I bought it for a reason. I know its one of the best in its class... but theres one major difference between KgNE and the Key stories. Magic. And it's quite alright to have it you know, it makes it that much more bewildering. But hey, that's probably just me. ;)

No, I wouldn't say that is a key difference.  The key difference would be the fact that KgNE focuses more on the aftermath.
But on the topic of magic, I don't mind it, however it has to be wielded correctly, which is often a difficult thing to do, otherwise you get issues of "why couldn't this problem be solved with magic?", and the viewer's inability to make implications drawn from real life due to this fantasy world.
Magic works better for stuff like comedy, however is more difficult for more serious shows due to the aforementioned problems.

Assassinator Wrote:Some examples include the guy healing the girl by doing something with that weird feather

So if that was the ending to the Air show, would you consider that something which makes you think?  There are, after all, various mysterious references, such as parallel events in the past to prompt such a question.

Assassinator Wrote:and the guy either turning into a bird or had his mind infused into the bird

And wouldn't you consider something like that prompting thought?
It might not have even been the guy - he may have been totally removed from the story (perhaps the crow was used as a device to give an alternative perspective on the story).
Since you probably can't give a definitive answer, you may "lolwut" it, but I say the same thing about open endings.

Its not that Magic is the key (I meant Key as in the VN writers) but an additive.. it is a distinct feature in the Key novels and theres no denying that.

The tragic occurrences as as "inserted" as the the car in KgNE - you can't do spoon about it - that's the way its written.

So, the thought process, for me anyway, is from a standpoint inside the anime, not outside it. "Magic isn't real, I'll bring the rating down a notch" (I'm not pointing at anyone ;p) but I'm sure that's a factor some people take into account when rating such things without admitting it.

Assassinator Wrote:Magic should be a feature of the story. Not an excuse for covering up random wtfness and crappy explanations.

It is, lol.................. I don't like how Air failed to make sense at the end. Simple as that.

The loose ends in Kanon aren't as critical as Air. Sure it makes you wonder........ but you wonder about a few things in your own life anyway. "Why did that ever happen".

I still find it interesting you enjoyed Air over Kanon, Zinga ^^

Senseito URΩBΩROS Wrote:Its not that Magic is the key (I meant Key as in the VN writers) but an additive.. it is a distinct feature in the Key novels and theres no denying that.

Yes, that is how it's done in Kanon; Air is a little more extreme, but magic as an additive can be difficult to justify.  As soon as there is magic, the story ceases to run in our world and is immediately placed in a fantasy setting.

Senseito URΩBΩROS Wrote:The tragic occurrences as as "inserted" as the the car in KgNE - you can't do spoon about it - that's the way its written.

If you didn't get me, I meant that I don't really feel that emotional, or value tragic events :P

Senseito URΩBΩROS Wrote:So, the thought process, for me anyway, is from a standpoint inside the anime, not outside it. "Magic isn't real, I'll bring the rating down a notch" (I'm not pointing at anyone ;p) but I'm sure that's a factor some people take into account when rating such things without admitting it.

I like magic.  Air had it, Death Note had it, Full Moon wo Sagachocolatee has it and I believe I rated all these fairly high.

Senseito URΩBΩROS Wrote:The loose ends in Kanon aren't as critical as Air. Sure it makes you wonder........ but you wonder about a few things in your own life anyway. "Why did that ever happen".

I'd personally prefer an unexplained ending than an entire story based upon unexplained issues.  The latter really puts question on whether the entire story can be justified, whereas the former just questions a portion of it.

But Kanons situations a just a 'given' just as much as Airs ending was a 'given'. If wee didn't like them for that they would be rated much worse.

I never have the story 'run' on earthly boundries. I consider it all to be something I can go to simply to vacate from earth........ magic or not, haha.

As for you not valuing tragic events....... that's rather tragic in itself. hehe.

Senseito URΩBΩROS Wrote:But Kanons situations a just a 'given' just as much as Airs ending was a 'given'. If wee didn't like them for that they would be rated much worse.

That's something I really do question.  Of course, some things you have to take as given, but some things really make you wonder why characters even bothered to take some series of events to arrive at a story.
Note, not referring to Kanon/Air.

Senseito URΩBΩROS Wrote:I never have the story 'run' on earthly boundries. I consider it all to be something I can go to simply to vacate from earth........ magic or not, haha.

Tis one things I like about magic too. :P

Senseito URΩBΩROS Wrote:As for you not valuing tragic events....... that's rather tragic in itself. hehe.

Does that mean I can write up a random crappy story full of tragic events and receive a high rating from you?

ZiNgA BuRgA Wrote:

Senseito URΩBΩROS Wrote:they felt equally abrupt in that sense......

Well gradual decline vs everyone suddenly getting healed.  Eh, up to you.

I didn't particularly find the end to be particularly abrupt. Well, I guess a bit, but if you compare to stuff like Claymore, it's nothing.

ZiNgA BuRgA Wrote:Kanon has plenty of stuff unexplained, like why he happened to forget everything after seven years, as well as various character traits (not talking about the cutesy factors).

And there are a few other things too. I never really said it's all perfect, simply more so than AIR. I made a thread in the anime forum asking some of that stuff, ofcourse, noone replied.

Character traits? Things like Nayuki not being to wake up in the morning? Think of these things as being part of the story, to make the characters more unique I guess? Either way, they're not important to the actual plot.

ZiNgA BuRgA Wrote:

Assassinator Wrote:Some examples include the guy healing the girl by doing something with that weird feather

So if that was the ending to the Air show, would you consider that something which makes you think?  There are, after all, various mysterious references, such as parallel events in the past to prompt such a question.

No, it would just be the most unfinished ending ever, I mean, you got all these craploads of other leads, and everything just ends. And ending that is open to interpretation is not the same as an ending which is completely inconclusive.

Assume you don't have all these other leads, don't have all the unneeded characters and plot, I think it'll still be pretty wtf anyway.

ZiNgA BuRgA Wrote:

Assassinator Wrote:and the guy either turning into a bird or had his mind infused into the bird

And wouldn't you consider something like that prompting thought?
It might not have even been the guy - he may have been totally removed from the story (perhaps the crow was used as a device to give an alternative perspective on the story).
Since you probably can't give a definitive answer, you may "lolwut" it, but I say the same thing about open endings.

You're are partially correct. But not simply "can't give a definitive answer". More like "not even close to giving a definitive answer".

Because "open to interpretation" is in itself, pretty blurry by definition. This is sort of like my "definition" of different descriptors for endings and what they mean.

Unfinished = the show just stops out of nowhere. So abrupt and inconclusive that you could expect a second season.
Finished = the show is finished.
- Inconclusive = the show (at least the main plot) is finished, but there are leads still left unattended.
- Conclusive = everything is concluded. The end.
     - Open to Interpretation = a conclusive ending, but doesn't tell you everything. Leaves it up to you to theory-craft the rest.


So yes, "open to interpretation" is just a "wtf" ending with a lower degree of wtfness I guess, if you look at it that way. You can say there's a level of up to what's acceptable and what's not, to the mind, and stuff gets filtered into different categories based on it. Similar to how the boundaries between unfinished and inconclusive are drawn in the mind.

Senseito URΩBΩROS Wrote:The tragic occurrences as as "inserted" as the the car in KgNE - you can't do spoon about it - that's the way its written.

In KgNE, the tragic event is simply an event from which the story is launched. In Kanon, the tragic events are the "high points" of the story. So not the same.

ZiNgA BuRgA Wrote:

Senseito URΩBΩROS Wrote:As for you not valuing tragic events....... that's rather tragic in itself. hehe.

Does that mean I can write up a random crappy story full of tragic events and receive a high rating from you?

Absolutely not. you've got to write an excellent story full of tragic events. It might work then.

A series of tragic events wouldn't work. Obviously. A crappy story would create pointlessness. A good story must be able to encapsulate the Tragic Events along with the Characters, Animation and every other aspect of an Anime - into an Anime.

Disturbing the equilibrium is the essence of story making... either from a tragic event ~ or watching Konata eat a chocolate cone.. it's incredible some people consider Lucky Star and Kanon to be of the same calibre because of how different they are.

But it is, all about the story ultimately.

Assassinator Wrote:

Senseito URΩBΩROS Wrote:The tragic occurrences as as "inserted" as the the car in KgNE - you can't do spoon about it - that's the way its written.

In KgNE, the tragic event is simply an event from which the story is launched. In Kanon, the tragic events are the "high points" of the story. So not the same.

I disagree. The high points were the restoration of equilibrium. If it ended with a tragic event..... not only would it be depressing but it wouldn't really have closure until its has been dealt with.

In that aspect both Kanon and KgNE achieve that. Air doesn't.