Endless Paradigm

You know, I was always wondering why windows doesn't have software repositories. Well, ok, wee ARE getting windows market for windows 8, but from what I've seen it's just self contained programs. There's no "package" to change other parts of an operating system like shell, add new features, etc.

Is it an issue of MUH PROPRIETARY/COMMERCIAL software? Or is it that the mentality of windows is that "it's perfect so it doesn't need to change" which is shared by its users and developers?

Personally I think it's the latter based on how people who use windows respond to change. For example, I like the new start menu; gives you a huge focus into selecting programs, taking up the whole screen. This seems more practical than just presenting a little window opening in the bottom left. Yet apparently this was a bad thing(?) for enough people to present a work around, which from what I've seen, has HUGE amounts of support.

To be honest, I don't like being in windows when I'm doing anything but using commercial software. I just think I'd enjoy it more if I could apply changes to the operating system easier, but do you think microsoft will ever give this much power to a user? Is it an issue of Microsoft products for a Microsoft OS sort of thing?

P.S. I'm aware of changing the shell and what not, but that usually is a solution where it runs over the operating system instead of modifying it. I guess it's just my ignorance, maybe I haven't given windows enough of a chance?

I'd just love to watch a windows dev at work, I'd like to see how they get around, alt-tabbing is so painful after the millionth time. What do they run? What are some programs that can improve windows productivity that don't involve running some service or installing a program to run atop of another windows service?

Tetris999 Wrote: [ -> ]do you think microsoft will ever give this much power to a user? Is it an issue of Microsoft products for a Microsoft OS sort of thing?

No, they won't and yes it is. The reason Linux has what it has in terms of support and actual dev interest in working on aspects closer to the core of an operating system is because there are no restrictions, whereas Windows is the opposite.

It would be pretty sweet if the Windows Store had open-ness closer to something like how Cydia was for iOS, and the same can be said about the Mac App Store but wee know that just ain't gonna happen. (Edit: That being said, the Play Store is pretty lenient about these things, what with Root programs and launcher replacements, so Google has a good example there.)

As for Windows productivity - do you really find it to be that much of an issue?

The userland shell isn't even a core component on either Windows or Linux. It's entirely independent of the kernel (the actual core of the system). If you so choose to do so, you can completely work from CLI. You can do away with Explorer entirely. This goes for any system. As to why Windows doesn't have software repositories is exactly what you pointed out: licensing. In theory, GPL/BSD/WTFPL software could be added to a repository for Windows users, but someone would need to maintain it. Microsoft obviously has no inclination to do that, and that's where it and systems like Linux differ. Linux is community driven, and software repositories are incredibly simple to setup. Since the majority of software is open source, anyone can modify something on a repository, add it back, or fudge it and create their own. Another thing about Windows software is that it can be easily infected. So someone trustworthy would also need to run these repositories. If you think about it though, they technically already exist. You've got sites like FileHippo, Softpedia, CNET, etc. that provide software archives and downloads.

Repositories: there's unofficial ones for Windows for a while.
I personally think it's because MS never thought it to be worthwhile maintaining, until Apple proved them wrong with the AppStore.  Now every other company out there wants to try cashing in on the concept.

People not liking change is nothing new, but I think this view can be justified.  For one, people don't like unnecessarily learning new things.
Office 2003 » 2007 was perhaps a prime example of a big interface change - many people got lost and felt uncomfortable in it.  I personally think the 2007 interface was an improvement, but the transition path could've been maintained better.
I don't think that the full screen start menu is particularly a bad idea, but it can affect people depending on their workflow.  For example, someone with a large monitor who likes having multiple things on screen at the same time.
I will say that Metro apps do seem significantly more restrictive than the ordinary desktop variants.

Tetris999 Wrote: [ -> ]I'd just love to watch a windows dev at work, I'd like to see how they get around, alt-tabbing is so painful after the millionth time.

What alternative does Linux have?
I personally have multiple virtual desktops as I like to have a lot open - that with Alt+Tab seems to work fine for me.

Senseito7 Wrote: [ -> ]

Tetris999 Wrote: [ -> ]do you think microsoft will ever give this much power to a user? Is it an issue of Microsoft products for a Microsoft OS sort of thing?

No, they won't and yes it is. The reason Linux has what it has in terms of support and actual dev interest in working on aspects closer to the core of an operating system is because there are no restrictions, whereas Windows is the opposite.

It would be pretty sweet if the Windows Store had open-ness closer to something like how Cydia was for iOS, and the same can be said about the Mac App Store but wee know that just ain't gonna happen. (Edit: That being said, the Play Store is pretty lenient about these things, what with Root programs and launcher replacements, so Google has a good example there.)

As for Windows productivity - do you really find it to be that much of an issue?

If something is confusing/obstructing me in doing something when I know exactly what I want to do, it's an issue. So for alt-tab if I have 8 windows open but I know exactly the window/window name I want to switch to, it shouldn't take a bunch of alt-tabs and guesses from the preview plane.

Then again saying this just reminded me of switcher, I'm going to go download and install that. Maybe I should maintain my own windows repository?

Joomy Wrote: [ -> ]The userland shell isn't even a core component on either Windows or Linux. It's entirely independent of the kernel (the actual core of the system). If you so choose to do so, you can completely work from CLI. You can do away with Explorer entirely. This goes for any system. As to why Windows doesn't have software repositories is exactly what you pointed out: licensing. In theory, GPL/BSD/WTFPL software could be added to a repository for Windows users, but someone would need to maintain it. Microsoft obviously has no inclination to do that, and that's where it and systems like Linux differ. Linux is community driven, and software repositories are incredibly simple to setup. Since the majority of software is open source, anyone can modify something on a repository, add it back, or fudge it and create their own. Another thing about Windows software is that it can be easily infected. So someone trustworthy would also need to run these repositories. If you think about it though, they technically already exist. You've got sites like FileHippo, Softpedia, CNET, etc. that provide software archives and downloads.

Well I wish it had a better shell, I just find cygwin to be a funky replacement in terms of getting along with windows file permissions and all or just administering windows itself since not everything is done through files (from what I've seen). I think there's probably a way to update it through CLI which I haven't checked for yet, but even then, cygwin updating through the gui is annoying. Compilation in windows is never that much fun for me, but again this may be due to my ignorance of how compilers/linkers work and what I need to do to get them to place nice and put together a windows binary. Funny how I don't know these too well (at least, not well enough to set up a compiler on my windows machine properly) and I've gotten this far with pro-gaming.

ZiNgA BuRgA Wrote: [ -> ]Repositories: there's unofficial ones for Windows for a while.
I personally think it's because MS never thought it to be worthwhile maintaining, until Apple proved them wrong with the AppStore.  Now every other company out there wants to try cashing in on the concept.

People not liking change is nothing new, but I think this view can be justified.  For one, people don't like unnecessarily learning new things.
Office 2003 » 2007 was perhaps a prime example of a big interface change - many people got lost and felt uncomfortable in it.  I personally think the 2007 interface was an improvement, but the transition path could've been maintained better.
I don't think that the full screen start menu is particularly a bad idea, but it can affect people depending on their workflow.  For example, someone with a large monitor who likes having multiple things on screen at the same time.
I will say that Metro apps do seem significantly more restrictive than the ordinary desktop variants.

Tetris999 Wrote: [ -> ]I'd just love to watch a windows dev at work, I'd like to see how they get around, alt-tabbing is so painful after the millionth time.

What alternative does Linux have?
I personally have multiple virtual desktops as I like to have a lot open - that with Alt+Tab seems to work fine for me.

Linux has some pretty nice window management in terms of tiling and what not with bspwm/awesome/dwm shenanigans. Also the removal of title bars and other GUI quirks let you do more once you know your way around. You have easy virtual desktops to switch between, which windows just doesn't have natively.

*insert rant that's not too related to what everyone replied with*
In the end, any software system can be tailored to your needs with a bit of hard work and programming, but it's just such a pain when it comes to windows. Nonetheless, I could just say this is me pouting about having to go after software downloads and what not. I guess another question is, how nice does windows play with all these software solutions? Is there some API I haven't heard of that lets you mess with the windows shell? Are there things you _cant_ do in windows in regards to changing some aspects of the operating system? And also, apart from microsoft tools for administering a windows system, is there anything else? A good example of this is powershell, as the completion mentioned above was pretty terrible and I couldn't find any easy way to make it better, since powershell is a microsoft product (and a needed one at that, due to all the API's) you're pretty much locked to this shell for windows cli stuff. Also, since I'm a jerk and love free software, if you just want the new version of powershell, you need to update windows(?). CMD is pretty bleh too, which makes me ask, are there replacement shells + plugins for these things?

Not that I could/would do the half of the stuff if given the freedom to do so, but why haven't I seen much in terms of windows enhancements around the web? I don't see a lot of people customizing or "improving" aspects of windows in ways I never thought of before, it was a whole lot different in linux.

Which is the whole point of the rant, "is this just me not looking spoon up properly to find a nice solution?"

Tetris999 Wrote: [ -> ]Linux has some pretty nice window management in terms of tiling and what not with bspwm/awesome/dwm shenanigans. Also the removal of title bars and other GUI quirks let you do more once you know your way around.

I don't really know what all those are, but it sounds like window positioning as opposed to switching (ie Alt-Tab).
In which case, there are 3rd party tilers for Windows, ignoring the built in basic management that Windows 7 has, but I've never looked at them.


As you know, Windows isn't as easily customisable as Linux.  As for the question about why no-one has bothered to do some things on Windows, it depends on the interest I suppose.  But there's a fair amount of customisations available for Windows if you look around.

For example, the Windows command line seems to be decent (you haven't really mentioned what you don't like about it) - it's no bash, but it can get the job done.
Though if you want bash, you can get that for Windows too (MSYS for a more Windows native version, Cygwin for more POSIX-y).

Or alternative Alt-Tab switchers - I remember a ton of them for XP to add in previews for example (I personally hate window previews and often killed the third party switcher on any machine which had it installed).

Tetris999 Wrote: [ -> ]I think there's probably a way to update it through CLI which I haven't checked for yet

caclcs command
Won't be as simple as Unix permissions since Windows uses ACLs as opposed to the simple rwx system.

I was talking about the visual shell, not a terminal emulator (Bash, ZSH, KSH, FiSH, etc. would be shells for cygwin). :P Windows has bbLean, LiteStep, Edge, and quite a few desktop shell replacements. There are also third party file managers out there that you can use so Explorer doesn't try to take back over.